I was reading up about the hellraiser mythos, and somthing really did strike me.
Leviathan lord of order, well a perfect shape, a diamond for a god?
Hates all flesh etc etc.
Now I know some hate the the wimpy good gods who oppse cthulu etc.
But what if they are more like leveiathan, or even more so, what if leviathan spawned them. In a way they are not good, just extreme order, like Azaroth is the extreme of chaos.
In a way Leviathan could be his like mirror image. An oppisite.
If this is what clive ment when he made this being, it does make you think.
Some think the good gods ruin the idea of a hell fillled universe, so in a way would it be ebtter to imagine them as beingss who hate humans just as much, and only want to use a cerrtain few in there battle against the horedes of chaos and tentacles.
Bah it a random theroy
Hellraiser there is a link i know there is
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NykylaiHellray
- Mi-Go Brain-Bait
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NykylaiHellray
- Mi-Go Brain-Bait
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Very interesting theory. I guess I could see it working out like that, which would definitely be a lot more interesting than "good Gods" fighting the Old Ones (where the hell did such an idea come from anyways?).
But there are definitely a lot of parallels in Hellraiser and Lovecraft's works (i.e. forbidden knowledge, I guess, in solving the lament configuration, though most of the time to people who solve it don't mean to
Shitty puzzle).
But there are definitely a lot of parallels in Hellraiser and Lovecraft's works (i.e. forbidden knowledge, I guess, in solving the lament configuration, though most of the time to people who solve it don't mean to
Shitty puzzle).
There's definately a similarity to the Hellraiser/Hellbound heart mythos and the Cthulhu Mythos. In fact, I think they both suffer from the audience's refusal to accept the amoral universe they represent and both also have been perverted by authors of lesser skill and greater agendas as time goes on.
The thing to remember is that "Hell" is an ambiguous term in the Hellraiser mythos (as it began in "the hellbound heart") - it's the best-fit term for the alternate reality of the cenobites. To emphasise this, the tagline for the 1st movie was "angels to some, demons to others", so there really is no good or bad, right or wrong. This is the same with the Cthulhu mythos, where human affairs and moral systems are insignificant and meaningless, based on ignorance of the universe and the powers that really influence it.
It's true, Leviathan is very reminiscant of Azathoth, you can even hear the flutes/pipes as he swirls at the centre of the abyss in Hellraiser 2.
As jp says, both Clive Barker & Lovecraft's characters go through some kind of initiation into knowledge and are transmorgified in the process. CB has a chapter in his book "Clive Barker's A-Z of Horror" where he says:-
"What lovecraft did have, which I think is very influential across the genre, is this extraordinary imagination. he was very po-faced (sorry, pun not quie intended) about the whole thing but he did really believe, or seemed to believe in the stuff, and his conviction carries you through the stories which otherwise I tend to find somewhat preposterous. He does give you the impression that he means all this stuff"
Perhaps that comment seems to fly in the face of what we're discussing, but remember that hellraiser evolved very quickly after the 1st film into somthing very different in the 2nd flim (my favourite movie of all time) which (as far as I can remember) wasn't written by Barker. For example, the "pinhead" character wasn't even in the novella, and only had a bit part in the 1st movie, but ended up being the be-all and end-all of the series.
The thing to remember is that "Hell" is an ambiguous term in the Hellraiser mythos (as it began in "the hellbound heart") - it's the best-fit term for the alternate reality of the cenobites. To emphasise this, the tagline for the 1st movie was "angels to some, demons to others", so there really is no good or bad, right or wrong. This is the same with the Cthulhu mythos, where human affairs and moral systems are insignificant and meaningless, based on ignorance of the universe and the powers that really influence it.
It's true, Leviathan is very reminiscant of Azathoth, you can even hear the flutes/pipes as he swirls at the centre of the abyss in Hellraiser 2.
As jp says, both Clive Barker & Lovecraft's characters go through some kind of initiation into knowledge and are transmorgified in the process. CB has a chapter in his book "Clive Barker's A-Z of Horror" where he says:-
"What lovecraft did have, which I think is very influential across the genre, is this extraordinary imagination. he was very po-faced (sorry, pun not quie intended) about the whole thing but he did really believe, or seemed to believe in the stuff, and his conviction carries you through the stories which otherwise I tend to find somewhat preposterous. He does give you the impression that he means all this stuff"
Perhaps that comment seems to fly in the face of what we're discussing, but remember that hellraiser evolved very quickly after the 1st film into somthing very different in the 2nd flim (my favourite movie of all time) which (as far as I can remember) wasn't written by Barker. For example, the "pinhead" character wasn't even in the novella, and only had a bit part in the 1st movie, but ended up being the be-all and end-all of the series.
.... also, another similarity between the two is the fact that the human protagonists of the stories have no framework within which to interpret their experience of the multi-dimensional entities and are driven mad in the process of trying to make sense of the experience. Compare the opening paragraph of "the dunwich horror" with Kirsty's "fairytale" monologue in Hellraiser 2...
good stuff, neonchris. hellraiser and the mythos both fit into a greater genus of story defined by that core philosophical premise.
in my view, however, less is more.. when hellraiser 2 came along and further defined the world of the cenobites, the whole thing became less scary to me. but i guess the fright factor isn't really of paramount importance—maybe it should be more of an immersion than a glimpse.. but i would definitely rather have clive barker tell the whole story, instead of unjust movies being directed by alan smithee
in my view, however, less is more.. when hellraiser 2 came along and further defined the world of the cenobites, the whole thing became less scary to me. but i guess the fright factor isn't really of paramount importance—maybe it should be more of an immersion than a glimpse.. but i would definitely rather have clive barker tell the whole story, instead of unjust movies being directed by alan smithee
A monkey riding a dog is probably the awesomest thing that could ever happen.
Contributors wanted! Fantastic Horror — Original Works of Disturbing Imagination
Contributors wanted! Fantastic Horror — Original Works of Disturbing Imagination
Oh yeah, Bloodline was truely awful. I have a friend who does a hilarious impression of the 18th century satanist "...steady jaques... a summoned demon is you'res to command!".
I know exactly what you mean about defining the world of the cenobites, and how that takes away their potency somehow, and I can also see how this kind of began with Hellraiser 2. However, I think that HR2 was really amazing in terms of the escher like design of "hell" and how they subtly married that up with the mental hospital which is also ever-so-slightly surrealistic... they really went to town with the concept of "the puzzle" which permeates almost every scene in one way or another, but not always obviously. The music was also very magical, especially the track called "something to think about" on the soundtrack album which stops me in my tracks every time. Add to all that the evil Dr Chanard, one of the best evil doctors in the history of cinema, played just the right side of camp. I really love it. It doesn't try too hard either, which is more than could be said for the rest of the series.
The scene where Tiffany solves the lament configuration and the cenobites arrive while Channard and Julia are hiding behind the mirror is stunning, awe inspiring and used to fill me with dread and wonder at the same time when I was a kid.
"...it is not hands that call us... it is DESIRE!"
**shudder**
I know exactly what you mean about defining the world of the cenobites, and how that takes away their potency somehow, and I can also see how this kind of began with Hellraiser 2. However, I think that HR2 was really amazing in terms of the escher like design of "hell" and how they subtly married that up with the mental hospital which is also ever-so-slightly surrealistic... they really went to town with the concept of "the puzzle" which permeates almost every scene in one way or another, but not always obviously. The music was also very magical, especially the track called "something to think about" on the soundtrack album which stops me in my tracks every time. Add to all that the evil Dr Chanard, one of the best evil doctors in the history of cinema, played just the right side of camp. I really love it. It doesn't try too hard either, which is more than could be said for the rest of the series.
The scene where Tiffany solves the lament configuration and the cenobites arrive while Channard and Julia are hiding behind the mirror is stunning, awe inspiring and used to fill me with dread and wonder at the same time when I was a kid.
"...it is not hands that call us... it is DESIRE!"
**shudder**
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Carmine Doll
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Erich Zann
- Occultist
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JJ Burke,
Though, I must say Hellbound is a more appreciative film with "the doctor is in" cenobite. He's got to be one of the very best cenobites of the whole series. This is also my favorite Hellraiser film. Though, they're all pretty cool just because of the whole cenobite concept.
If Leviathan and co. are mirror images of Azathoth and his Trinity, why do the Cenobites have no cultists?
Because, really there is no relation other than in the most general comparison.
Though, I must say Hellbound is a more appreciative film with "the doctor is in" cenobite. He's got to be one of the very best cenobites of the whole series. This is also my favorite Hellraiser film. Though, they're all pretty cool just because of the whole cenobite concept.
If Leviathan and co. are mirror images of Azathoth and his Trinity, why do the Cenobites have no cultists?
Because, really there is no relation other than in the most general comparison.
"I saw no city spread below, and no friendly lights gleaming from remembered streets, but only the blackness of space illimitable; unimagined space alive with motion and music, and having no semblance of anything on earth."
yeah, that was a good character. i still remember his line, 'and to think... i hesitated!'Erich Zann wrote:Though, I must say Hellbound is a more appreciative film with "the doctor is in" cenobite. He's got to be one of the very best cenobites of the whole series.
A monkey riding a dog is probably the awesomest thing that could ever happen.
Contributors wanted! Fantastic Horror — Original Works of Disturbing Imagination
Contributors wanted! Fantastic Horror — Original Works of Disturbing Imagination
Yeah, that line is awesome. All in the delivery. Again, it's hinting at the amoral which is a major theme of lovecraft and Hellraiser. The Cenobites DO actually have cultists as far as I remember from the novella... at least in that there are people who pass on the details of the ritual to invoke the cenobites - the rose petals/urine etc... and the lament configuration (of course). In the first movie, there was the tramp who transformed into the skeletal dragon at the climax, something that I thought (when I first saw it as a child) was really awe-inspiring & wonderful at the same time. I liked the fact that it was really cryptic and that left you trying to figure out who was the biggest threat, the greatest menace, the cenobites, subject as they are to the limitations of boxes and rituals or this shapeshifting vagabond who had the box and it's powers at his disposal. If you're looking for comparison to Lovecraft then this figure fulfills a function similar to Nyarathotep; channeling alien and supernatural forces into the human world via a shapeshifting anthropomorphic being. (maybe michael jackson comes under that category as well, and he DEFINATELY has cultists!)
As well as all that, Dr Channard of Hellbound is in many ways an obsessive cultist, just look at all the brick-a-brack in his study, and his devotion to the lament configuration and all that comes with it. I actually noticed that there are some very clever elements in the set design in his studay... 1st of all I notice the large scale print of the 6 of Discs from Crowley's Tarot deck in the backround. Someone thought very carefully when tehy did the set, and they obviously had some understanding of the esoteric and occult. Many people would have used the more overtly frightening but innapropriate DEVIL or DEATH cards there... maybe the 10 of swords.
The 6 of discs symbolises a transient condition of the material world, where everything falls into place for a moment, facilitating the manifestation of the magician's will. Very appropriate for a ritual/evokation which is essentially what channard is up to.
The scoundral!
As well as all that, Dr Channard of Hellbound is in many ways an obsessive cultist, just look at all the brick-a-brack in his study, and his devotion to the lament configuration and all that comes with it. I actually noticed that there are some very clever elements in the set design in his studay... 1st of all I notice the large scale print of the 6 of Discs from Crowley's Tarot deck in the backround. Someone thought very carefully when tehy did the set, and they obviously had some understanding of the esoteric and occult. Many people would have used the more overtly frightening but innapropriate DEVIL or DEATH cards there... maybe the 10 of swords.
The 6 of discs symbolises a transient condition of the material world, where everything falls into place for a moment, facilitating the manifestation of the magician's will. Very appropriate for a ritual/evokation which is essentially what channard is up to.
The scoundral!
...come to think of it, the cenobites are actually cultists themselves, isn't their title "the order of the gash?"... and the lead cenobite (pinhead) has always had all the trappings of some kind of perverted priesthood... as with Lovecraft, the object and motivation of their worship is abstract and cryptic, although it seems that in Hellraiser it seems to have more of an interest in human affairs, either that or it just enjoys playing with them more...