LSD

[Jesus Prime]

How can hate Kennedy? He's one of the better Presidents you've had, after Clinton. I'm bieng very very serious here.

On another very serious note - Yog, what the fuck are you on?

[Carmine Doll]

Well Not to be mean or anything I really don't care much for presidents!!!

But I can tell you that my Fav President of all time will be Lincon!!

[Adrian]

So you would rather have crack whores running butt naked down the streets than have a reasonable president in office?

That's the most nihilistic view of the world I've seen since the Circus scene in "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas".

[Erich Zann]

[/quote]
certain life experiences can accomplish the same thing.. but for people whose lives are just too ordinary and comfortable, a chemical aide like acid might help them second-guess some of the things they take for granted, and first-guess some of the things they never considered..

If you've never experienced taking LSD you really can't realize what it is your talking about. A common mistake and easily taken for granted especially by those who, "second guess some of the things they take for granted," as something they could just as easily imagine how it would be.

The experience is more of a humbling experience than anything else.

Another thing LSD was paramount toward the 60s revolution which indeed influenced western society just a little more than it has been given credit. There is absolutely nothing artificial about an experience with LSD-25.

1956 - 1962
Although the drug was not illegal, MGM tried to kill the story that as part of his psychotherapy with Doctor Mortimer Hartman, actor Cary Grant was one of 112 Californians who'd taken LSD for a Government research programme. Grant couldn't get enough and took more than 60 trips; "I have been born again... I have been through a psychiatric experience which has completely changed me... I was an utter fake, a self-opinionated bore, a know-all who knew very little,"the post trip Grant concluded.HS

There is much more to the discovery of Lysergic acid diathylamide in 1938 by Swiss chemist Dr Albert Hoffman than just distorting one's senses.

In fact, the use of hallucinogens-nonaddictive narcotics that act on the mental processes in such a way as to produce temporary altered states of consciousness-are used for spiritual meditation by almost all shamans and aborigines for spiritual meditation and trance healing (which by the way was usually very successful) for these so called, "savages" -people truly in tune with nature? Exactly.

Yes, it is a powerful drug and it's not really necessary for everyone to attain some sort of enlightenment, but still for artists, it is definitely a boon.

So if you haven't tried it, you really can't prate about it, because even if you actually are referring to someone elses bad trip, you still don't know the depth of the experience they were having, for it truly does expand the mind whether you "imagine" it does or not.

And believe it or not bad trips are just as much a wealth of artistic vision as good trips; the art of nightmares which Lovecraft held so dear.


Yes, I'm a psychedelic sixties freak forever holding my freak flag high, just like the rest of you.

Let the immaturity commence!

[Adrian]

What other psychedelic drugs are there that are powerful and easy to attain? I heard of fly agaric.

[Erich Zann]

What other psychedelic drugs are there that are powerful and easy to attain? I heard of fly agaric.

Salvia is legal, lasts twenty minutes or so, and will show you many of the lies (or some of the illusions commonly force fed society by some institutions) of the life in which we all live.

Also I'd just like to make sure I'm not misunderstood. I'm not saying in any way that art inspired by LSD or any other psychedelic is superior in any way. All I'm relaying is what a wonderful side dish psychedelics are to be enjoyed!

[JJ Burke]

@JJ B: how can you determine that?

personal experience from both angles.. i have had actual and artificial experiences that led to very similar 'destinations of thought'

If you've never experienced taking LSD you really can't realize what it is your talking about. A common mistake and easily taken for granted especially by those who, "second guess some of the things they take for granted," as something they could just as easily imagine how it would be.

see above..

i sense some defensiveness here. all i posted was my own perspective.. if you think you have achieved something with acid that could never have happened any other way, then i'll take your word for it. but don't presume that i don't know what i'm talking about.. that's just knee-jerk

ps. i hope you know that when i quoted and responded to this...

Actually I am a LSD advocate. It is truly an awakening experience and should be tried at least once by (almost) everyone to knock them of that vapid, self absorbed, pedastal so many people cling to.

...i was reacting to the hypothetical person you are describing, not to your advocacy of lsd. i'm not interested in value judgments, just pondering the mechanisms that relate to the brain and the consciousness, and whether there isn't more than one way to access any given mental state

[Erich Zann]

JJ Burke,

"personal experience from both angles.. i have had actual and artificial experiences that led to very similar 'destinations of thought'"

You never mentioned or confirmed such an experience and who hasn't.

"i sense some defensiveness here."

Absolutely not. Merely stating personal findings.

"...i was reacting to the hypothetical person you are describing, not to your advocacy of lsd. i'm not interested in value judgments, just pondering the mechanisms that relate to the brain and the consciousness, and whether there isn't more than one way to access any given mental state"

Actually you came off more like chemically induced altered states of mind were artificial and could always be easily conceived without their aid.

"if you think you have achieved something with acid that could never have happened any other way, then i'll take your word for it. but don't presume that i don't know what i'm talking about.. that's just knee-jerk "

I never inferred anything of the sort. In fact I made my claims quite clear.

Have you ever tried LSD?

JJ Burke, I'm really not trying to belittle or compromise the integrity of anybody who is unversed in psychedelics. Though, if you've actually had an legitimate experience with hallucinogens, really why would they deny their value?

[JJ Burke]

certain life experiences can accomplish the same thing

...referring to the 'awakening' you mentioned. from this you got 'always easily'? somehow i don't think we're operating on the same frequency. at no point did i deny the value of hallucinogens or anything else. and yeah, i have been there, done that, might go back. so what? i merely suggested that 'life experiences,' referring to the varied circumstances and events one encounters in the human condition, independent of deliberate devices, can also converge in such as way as to alter a person's perspective about previously-unquestioned matters. i'm not even sure how you thought this was an argument against your statement in the first place.

but if you want to turn a blind eye to my message, which i have now twice reiterated, we can just talk about how things 'come off' at first glance..

Actually I am a LSD advocate. It is truly an awakening experience and should be tried at least once by (almost) everyone to knock them off that vapid, self absorbed, pedastal so many people cling to. [then:] The experience is more of a humbling experience than anything else.

what's the difference between this and self-congratulatory arrogance? is the irony intentional? bragging about how humble you've become by stalwartly exploring the fringes of perception, blazing trails through a spiritual wilderness that naïve hicks like me (or anyone who fails to high-five in the name of timothy leary) must fear out of ignorance?

*sigh*

...but it doesn't feel good for me to rant like that. especially at a die-hard idealist from the free love era. i'm more on your side than you might think. but it's hard to talk ideas with someone who doesn't hear what's being said

[Erich Zann]

JJ Burke,

what's the difference between this and self-congratulatory arrogance? is the irony intentional? bragging about how humble you've become by stalwartly exploring the fringes of perception, blazing trails through a spiritual wilderness that naïve hicks like me (or anyone who fails to high-five in the name of timothy leary) must fear out of ignorance?

What? Where does such a bitter statement come from and why?

Ignorance, arrogance, fear? Of????????

Bragging?

I merely responded to a certain statement you've made regarding hallucinogens. Your statement (which made I add was directed toward my reply to Adrian) about my feelings on LSD of;

certain life experiences can accomplish the same thing.. but for people whose lives are just too ordinary and comfortable, a chemical aide like acid might help them second-guess some of the things they take for granted, and first-guess some of the things they never considered..

If i've misconstrued your meaning just say so. That's all. Getting (yourself so upset) over my apparent lack of attention isn't gonna help me see your view.

Oh by the way I wasn't suggesting you were vapid, self absorbed, or on a pedastal. That comment is in regards to a great many people lost in the world of Hollywood and so forth. That statement wasn't necessarilly being directed at you. If this is what your problem happens to be with my reply to you.

[odin2]

So you would rather have crack whores running butt naked down the streets than have a reasonable president in office?

That's the most nihilistic view of the world I've seen since the Circus scene in "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas".

A reasonable president?!?! In america? never..

[JJ Burke]

Where does such a bitter statement come from and why?

doesn't seem fair when people fill in the blanks based on impressions, does it? sort of like when you assume that i'm 'unversed' in something because i offer an alternative viewpoint from yours. it's disrespectful, is the point

[Erich Zann]

JJ Burke,

Firstly, you've got way too upset over this.

Secondly, I should have been specific with responding to your reply. I do not agree certain life experiences can produce they same result. Maybe if the recipient has been subject to some sort of art that was inspired by an artist who has had a psychedelic experience, but even then it would just be a watered down imitation of another's personal hallucinogenic experience. You have to do it yourself (your ego has to be personally assaulted by the hallucinogen, esp. LSD) to know just how personal and potentially spiritual the experience is. Certain life experiences could only offer a fragmentary or vaguely relative experience. I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.

Thirdly, the second guessing and first guessing comment I admittedly misconstrued and upon re-reading it understand and agree with that part of your statement.

Fourthly, there is nothing of arrogance, self-congratulatory, or bragging about my statements they were basically made to give Adrian and who ever else some basic info (that apparently you know quite well) to start from if they were interested.

Another thing,

"i merely suggested that 'life experiences,' referring to the varied circumstances and events one encounters in the human condition, independent of deliberate devices, can also converge in such as way as to alter a person's perspective about previously-unquestioned matters."

Of course they can, but we're talking about hallucinogenic (LSD) experiences and your above statement is not one. Whether induced through meditation, ritual trances, or any other method. Really, you know you have to take LSD, to know the experience. There is no other way.

Finally:

"...but it doesn't feel good for me to rant like that. especially at a die-hard idealist from the free love era. i'm more on your side than you might think. but it's hard to talk ideas with someone who doesn't hear what's being said"

I do hear what your saying brother and on top of it all we both love HPLs works.

I am hard headed at times I know this and I do tend to jump to conclusions, but if someone dosen't make what they have to say clearly stated then I can only surmise, and it takes some effort to do this with topics of any complexity. You've got to speak up and leave no room misunderstanding the first time.

I would never disrespect you, EVER, unless I felt I was being disrespected or treated unfairly. Even then like you say "sigh" it's a disappointing experience.

I apologize for upsetting ya anyway.

[Jesus Prime]

So you would rather have crack whores running butt naked down the streets than have a reasonable president in office?

That's the most nihilistic view of the world I've seen since the Circus scene in "Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas".

A reasonable president?!?! In america? never..

CLINTON! He gave you the lowest crime rate you've had since the pilgrims came over, he's the only President you've had who didn't leave you in debt and he played the saxophone. You will never have a better President.
I highly recommend you read anything by Noam Chomsky, and Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" before you start arguing with me on the above point.

[JJ Burke]

Thirdly, the second guessing and first guessing comment I admittedly misconstrued and upon re-reading it understand and agree with that part of your statement.

yes! now you see i was supporting what you said, not discounting it.

Fourthly, there is nothing of arrogance, self-congratulatory, or bragging about my statements they were basically made to give Adrian and who ever else some basic info (that apparently you know quite well) to start from if they were interested.

that was intentionally exaggerated to illustrate my point about jumping to conclusions. i did not mean to genuinely ridicule you, so i also apologize.

here's the core of my uneasy handling of this topic: i'm using my real name. i know people who have been denied jobs and other opportunities because of things they said candidly on the internet. so i'm not comfortable just rattling off a bunch of tripping-balls anecdotes to build up my cred for this topic.. i'm trying to approach the discussion from an angle that can't stigmatize me later (ie. adventures of a psychonaut).

i'm glad we were able to look again and see what wasn't there before. that's literally the meaning of re-spect. fhtagn, comrade!