hpl: bigoted newt, or just misunderstood?

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:49 pm

Leaders are leaders because they don't need to answer to anyone.

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:51 pm

And that makes him a Communist because why?

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:55 am

He led the country and was a mass murderer. He was worse han a communist: he didn't believe in it maybe, but he used it to opress millions.

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:30 pm

There's a lot worse than a Communist, man.
But Stalin was evil, and I've always made a point of being blunt about that. Can you beleive Putin wants to go back to the "glory days" of Stalinism?

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:36 pm

As Putin is an ex-KGB operative it is logical that goverement officials are all ex-KGB men and the goverment remains under the principal of terror that Stalin also used. There weren't any glory days I think.

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:07 pm

Jesus Prime wrote:I know he's a racist, and I accept that. But just as "Birth of a Nation" gave so much to cinema, Lovecraft's work can't be discarded because the man didn't like the "darkies". Shakespeare can be pretty intolerant of a lot of things - especially gypsies - but no one seems to care about that.

I admire Lovecraft's literary work and the enormous influence it has had on subsequent dark fantasists, but my admiration stops there.

Yes, racism was prevalent during Lovecraft's era, but it was not the only attitude on race he would have encountered in his lifetime, and it was markedly different from his own prejudices. His views on ethnicity may have been shaped, in part, by others, but Lovecraft was intelligent enough to draw his own conclusions. In the end, not all of them were commendable.

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:22 pm

... You just reworded my own argument.

And Adrian, the inverted commas meant I was being sarcastic about 'glory days' - I'm shit-scared of anything remotely resembling the cold war.

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:39 am

Jesus Prime wrote:... You just reworded my own argument.

No, you seem to believe that Lovecraft's racism was simply a product of the times, leaving the man no opportunity to develop an alternative outlook. That just strikes me as an apologist's attempt to divert attention away from the chips in Lovecraft's pedestal.

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:45 am

i haven't read all of hpl's stories.. frankly, his style of writing can be a chore to process. and i didn't start out particularly interested in his personality. it's really the themes and ideas behind the stories that attracted me.

when that article drew its unflattering connections between those themes and the man himself, it left me in a sort of pickle between 'disowning' hpl from my private pantheon, or rationalizing a new layer of appreciation based on irony.

by embracing the warped psychology and morals of the writer as part of the whole package, i somehow pay deeper tribute to 'the fundamental premise that common human laws and interests and emotions have no validity or significance in the vast cosmos-at-large.'

does this hold water, or did i get up too early this morning

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:04 am

E.A. Lovecraft wrote:
Jesus Prime wrote:... You just reworded my own argument.
No, you seem to believe that Lovecraft's racism was simply a product of the times, leaving the man no opportunity to develop an alternative outlook. That just strikes me as an apologist's attempt to divert attention away from the chips in Lovecraft's pedestal.

No, I'm saying that Loveraft's decision to deride other races as inferior was no better and no worse than those around him. He's not a "product of the times" but an example of them, making it odd that he alone would be singled out in the article that started this.

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:41 pm

JJ Burke wrote:does this hold water, or did i get up too early this morning

I find it hard to hold water when I get up in the morning, but I think you did just fine.

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:54 pm

Jesus Prime wrote:He's not a "product of the times" but an example of them, making it odd that he alone would be singled out in the article that started this.

Why is it odd? The article discusses his experiences and viewpoints as influences on his own works.

Adrian · Post by **Adrian** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:58 pm

@JP: I understand, but the cold war was a threat to the world, while before that for decades genocide and murder was state policy. I think those were the g(l)ory days of Stalin.

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:37 pm

Adrian wrote:@JP: I understand, but the cold war was a threat to the world, while before that for decades genocide and murder was state policy. I think those were the g(l)ory days of Stalin.

I know that's what he'll be remembered for, and it's why he's so evil and hated, but if Putin was to return to anything like that, America would be on him like a shot, and the two biggest nuclear powers would once more be major enemies - bad thing.

Yog-Sothoth · Post by **Yog-Sothoth** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:27 pm

when did communists come into this?