The Temple of Dagon

What does presentism have to do with this discussion? Nobody has accused Lovecraft of possessing modern-day characteristics that were not present during his lifetime.

That Lovecraft had racist contemporaries does not mean he had no choice but to hold the same beliefs. He had non-racist contemporaries as well.

Raising Lovecraft's racism is not an automatic attack on the man or the quality of his work. It merely presents some insight into his creative process. "Leaving this sort of thing behind" is not a step forward; it's denial.





Long live Floppie the Banjo Clown! \m/ \m/

Presentism is our tendency to judge the past by our own standards-it's what this whole discussion is about.
There's not a damned thing to be done about the attitudes of HPL or anyone else who happens to be dead.
All we can do is point it out in passing, and not repeat these mistakes.
There's too much rannygazoo about racism these days-witness the recent fuss over a harmless remark by Biden about Obama.
Recently I lost a friend-and she can stay lost, too-because I called the current government of Iran "the ragheads".
I don't dislike Muslims in general, but by God, that crew of madmen, with their ambitions to get the Bomb, their recent hosting of a Holocaust Denial Festival and the cruel, repressive nature of their rule have forfieted any consideration.
When they get that Bomb-and they will, the bumbling and dithering of the west almost makes it a certainty-the first target they aim at will be Israel.
Irony-she's Jewish, I'm not.
I'm done with this topic, we have beaten it to death, realized that yes, HPL was a racist, and deplored it.
Any new business?

Now the extreme defensiveness and apologetics make sense. Still not sure where you see presentism, though, unless you truly believe there were no non-racists during Lovecraft's time. There have been no anachronistic views here.

You're not following me.
HPL's views are not going to change, he's dead.
And at the time he wrote, his views were not extraordinary.
We've establihed that he was a racist in a racist time(Hitler was coming to power in the last few years of Lovecraft's life.)
We've established that these views are wrong.
This is a done deal, a closed case, everybody agrees.
Enough!

Whether his views were morally wrong, culturally extraordinary, or subject to change post mortem have never been the issue.

On a different note, I wonder--if Lovecraft did not believe in Aryan supremacy--how his writings may have turned out differently (besides renaming a certain feline).

Wouldn't have changed a thing.
Lovecraft was a fusty, fussy Anglophile, trying to comfort himself for his family's loss of status by trumpeting his Colonial roots.
As did the 'old Christians' of Spain and the fugitive French nobles, or White Russians of later days.
The Scots came, they despised the Micks.
The Micks despised the Dagoes.
The Squareheads had money, and despised all of them.
And they all hated the Colored and the Chinks.
American history, viewed through a screen of skin color is not a pretty picture, and even today it continues to be a vexed question.
Peace, good friends, let us divide these loaves and Swedish Fishes, and dine in good fellowship.
We won't solve it here.

that's the spirit!

Thanks for reminding me, we need something to wash it down!

Meh, thats why I live here in Canada...people are far more prejudice then they are racist

HPL is a conservative who has views that shocks the crap out of whoever has views that beg to differ. I think he isn't a sexless moma's boy because he did get some pussy from his ex-wife. His views are driven by what was going on during the timeframe, and the reason he wrote the stories he wrote was because he wanted to tell society to fuck themselves in some sense.

HPL was a tall individual who looked like he could easy kick someone's ass and his fiction reflected it. the monsters in his work -- everyone is fucked in the end. So in theory he drove off his views and in creating the Cthulhu, he created the ultimate horror monster and allowing other writers to play around with the creature in their work -- he just created a beast everyone can write about and give it a dimension that would create hell on earth.

I've always just seen Lovecraft as a somewhat avarage, yet educated, man with an introverted personality. He probably did get laid a few times, but theres sort of the question of did he even give a shit? I do agree his writings in a sense were basically telling everyone to go fuck themselves. Yet I could see Lovecraft actually doing that in real life, perhaps if he wasn't such a loner he might of got into politics or something.

Eternities End wrote:perhaps if he wasn't such a loner he might of got into politics or something.

Is he running again?

Is Cthulhu a republican or a democrat?

Neither. He's independent.