Is Shub-Niggurath a Great Old One or is she an Outer God??

CthulhuLegionary · Post by **CthulhuLegionary** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:57 pm

Hey guys, i just wanted to know if Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young, is a Great Old One or is she Outer God.

And also, is she a she or is he a he?

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:41 pm

Shub-Niggurath is in fact a great old one.
Listed outer gods are, Daoloth, Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth and to an extent Nyarlathotep, but not strictly

CthulhuLegionary · Post by **CthulhuLegionary** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:44 pm

hey tnks man!

but where does she dwell?

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:40 pm

Not sure where she dwells im fairly sure its just nowhere...kinda like some of the others...outside the universe maybe or something try a wikipedia search....
My source material was the 7th. Ed. Call of Cthulhu RPG core rulebook so it should be fairly accurate...

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:50 pm

Well the Material presented in the wikipedia article is fairly detailed and rather interresting as it seems that the god shub is a female and the black goat of the woods is a seperate entity who is male according to their evidence which is fairly good. This is rather curious a concept.
I definitely think you should have a look at that article as it is quite interesting material, in fact i find it quite interesting that this has been largely unnoticed by lovecraft fans as it is fairly obvious in the way that lovecraft writes of them.
She also seems to have a link to the twins, nug and yeb which is curious because of their ties to yog-sothoth.
"Yog-Sothoth begat nug and yeb and nug and yeb begat yog-sothoth this is known as the twin blasphemy the key and the gate..."
I will look further into this subject as it seems fairly interesting...will update later on progress

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:56 pm

The term Outer God is used to describe a number of deities in the Cthulhu Mythos of H. P. Lovecraft, although Lovecraft himself did not introduce this exact term (he used the term Other God). The Outer Gods are vastly more powerful than the Great Old Ones and function on a cosmic scale. Although the distinction between the two groups has been recognized by some mythos authors, it was the role-playing game Call of Cthulhu that first introduced the term "Outer Gods". Nonetheless, the delineation between the Outer Gods and the Great Old Ones is not always clear, and some scholars do not recognize the distinction at all.[1] The idea is most likely based on the titular entities in Lovecraft's story The Other Gods, where they are called "gods of the outer hells that guard the feeble gods of earth",[2] and who appear again in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath where they are referred to at one point as "the mindless Other Gods from Outside, whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep",[3] and are contrasted with the weaker "gods of earth" or Great Ones who are described as "ruling feebly our own dreamland and having no power or habitation elsewhere". These stories are usually categorized in Lovecraft's Dream Cycle, which some view as distinct from his Cthulhu Mythos, although a few beings such as Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth appear in stories from both.

Abhoth is listed as an outer god which i find as dubious in all respects
Azathoth, Daoloth, Ghroth, The Nameless Mist Nyog'Sothep?, Nyrlathotep, Shub-Niggurath(Interesting...) ,Ubbo Sathla, Yidhra, Yog-Sothoth

In my opinion this list is flawed at best, although that is the very nature of wikipedia in itself... i will further research this topic...

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:31 pm

It seems in contradiction, but either one is probably a safe bet to be honest as there is little difference or actual definitive boudary betwwen the two...

CthulhuLegionary · Post by **CthulhuLegionary** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:49 pm

Wow, that is quite interesting... especially the fact that the line between a great old one and an outer god can be blurry at times.
i have read the article which u recommeded , and it mentioned "the black ram of the forest with a thousand ewe ".
The article also states that the black goat may be "the figurehead through which Shub-Niggurath is worshipped", so the goat may be an avatar of Shub-Niggurath, just as The Black Pharaoh is an avatar of Nyarlathotep.

tsathoggua · Post by **tsathoggua** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 6:04 pm

Yes, it seems the black goat is not strictly shub-niggurath,
But my conclusion from all this is that lovecraft did not set and actual defintition to the difference between the two, they are interchangeable terms great old ones simply meaning that they were inferior to azathoth and suchlike.
I'd say you could use either and get away with it.

NoPoet · Post by **NoPoet** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:26 am

Sorry to bump an old post. I've always found the Dark Young and Shub-Niggurath the most "appealing" of the Mythos entities for the alien horror of their appearance.

As I understand it, Shub-Niggurath is an Outer God, given its (apparently) tremendous powers, which are greatly expanded on in Delta Green: Countdown.

I am not inclined to think of "Shub-Niggurath" and the "Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young" as being anything other than one and the same. There are quite enough avatars of existing gods and the mythos sometimes verges on being cluttered with godlike aliens (why would the earth, if it is so unimportant and does not obey the cosmic laws of the Mythos, seem to attract every god and demi-god in the universe, when it seems like most of them end up trapped here for millennia?).

While the CoC roleplay book does discuss the Shub-Niggurath issue (for example, is this term a reference to the God or the Dark Young, did Lovecraft bugger up when creating this name from Arabic etc), to me the whole thing seems moot: the Dark Young are the twenty foot tall monstrosities and Shub-Niggurath is their god-like patron. The fiction I plan to write about them will follow that simple tenet.

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JamesSimon · Post by **JamesSimon** » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:45 pm

i did always used niggurath as a corpse name in my band, which is Lovecraft inspired themes. but never knew the depth of the name until i read this thread.

i just used it because of she is a god.